I am a little more than halfway through the recently released Pete Townshend memoir. Nothing too revelatory as of yet, but it has been very entertaining. One thing though that has been mentioned a number of times was Townshend's on again/off again affair with Keith Moon's playing. A recent documentary about the making of "Quadrophenia," which aired chopped to bits on VH-1 last week, shows Pete expressing the same feelings.
Basically, Roger loved Keith as a drummer and Pete thought he overplayed. While Pete was constantly hearing "boom BAP boom BAP," Keith was forever playing "boom da TING biddily BASH BOO BOOM, dugga-dugga-CRASH." (Actual Townshend quote, I swear.)
I've been on a Who kick for what seems like months now, playing everything from the early records to Roger Daltrey's lame solo work to bad sounding bootlegs. I also managed to find a soft-spot for some of the material on "It's Hard," particularly the Entwistle tracks. But, the difference between the band with Keith Moon and with Kenney Jones is like the difference between firing a bullet and throwing one, as the expression goes.
(I do want to give props to Zak Starkey, who I think is closer in spirit to Keith Moon than Kenney Jones. I guess it helps when Keith Moon is your teacher.)
This is not to say Kenney isn't a fine drummer. Just listen to the Small Faces and the Faces. Stellar. But the two records with Jones, "Face Dances" and "It's Hard," the former released just a little over two years after Moon's death, have a vibe-change that is hard to ignore. Can one man make that much of a difference?
Are there other bands you consider completely different animals after replacing just one member?
Lead vocalists should not be considered, or bands like Foreigner, a band touring with NO original members.
Watch "Isle Of Wight". It's the Keith Moon show.
ReplyDeleteI love Townsend's quote.
Keith said, "I'm probably the best Keith Moon style drummer in the world" or something like it.
Let me think about your excellent question and answer it later.
RE: the Who, I think that losing Moon definitely affected their sound, but I think the reason that Face Dances and It's Hard were so un-Who-like was more about Townsend's songwriting than who was behind the drumkit. The songs on those albums lacked the passion and angst that was a trademark of the Who. Daltry doesn't let out any of his patented screams in those songs, because there is nothing to scream about. They are (mostly) confused pop songs, which is what Pete was writing those days. Both of those albums would probably be looked upon more favorably if they were Townsend solo albums rather than drags on the Who's legacy.
ReplyDeleteAs far as other bands who changed after losing a key member, my first thought was that REM was a very different band after their drummer, Bill Berry, left.
the first band that comes to mind took a double hit: that was the Rolling Stones when Brian Jones faded away and was replaced and then when Mick Taylor left. I think they lost something they never regained when the multi-instrumentalist Jones left, and the beauty of Taylor's guitar work has been driven home for me lately now that the Live in Brussels and other live albums from that early 70s period have been made available. Taylor's work on the Brussels album is especially beautiful, as it is, of course, on Sticky Fingers. I don't think as good a guitarist as he is, Ronnie Wood has come close to Taylor in regard to the uniqueness of his sound. As a guitarist with the Stones in comparison, I think he has made an excellent drinking partner for Keith.
ReplyDeleteI would say that XTC was a completely different band with Dave Gregory's replacement of Barry Andrews. He gave them more "musical muscle" in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteCan't disagree more Paul. Definitely two different bands and with Andrews there was more energy, but I think you are in a very very small minority.
DeleteI have to agree with Paul. Those early records are a blast, and I love them. But that band catapulted into the stratosphear on so many levels from "English Settlement" on.
DeleteIt's me reading Paul's comments the wrong way round. I do agree, I should pay more attention and I'm standing in the corner.
DeleteAnother major difference between the two is that in the studio, Gregory onwards they got better and better, live (and we can only largely judge it on three albums)they got worse.
English Settlement just didn't translate live and Partridge has acknowledged that they wouldn't have become the band they did if they had continued to play live.
Yet the early stuff didn't really translate in the studio, live they were awesome.
Troy,
ReplyDeletePoint taken about Pete's songwriting But when you listen to live bootlegs with Kenney, the older material feels flat. It's not just Pete's new found love of pop tunes. Kenney just approached the material differently. Why shouldn't he, he isn't Keith. To my ears though, it didn't work.
XTC immediately jumps to mind: Different sound when Barry Andrews left.
ReplyDeleteB-52's after Ricky WIlson died. Similar sound afterwards, but moving the drummer to the guitar player did change the sound of the band (IMO).
Bands that changed significantly after the original drummer left: REM (at least the next 3-4 albums after Bill Berry left were all snoozers), DEVO (nobody has yet replaced Alan Meyers), The Knack (admittedly not as drastic), XTC (after Terry Chambers left, the orchestration of everything changed significantly.)
The Attractions. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bruce Thomas helped define the sound of EC's music. To me, it has not been the same since.
The Three O'Clock -- Louis Gutierrez was the guitar sound for that band. The albums they made without him sucked.
And the Monkees were not the same after Peter Tork left, either!
The Flying Burrito Brothers when they replaced Gram with Rick Roberts not a bad band but not The Burritos with Gram. Yeah I know he was the singer but he was also the chief songwriter so....
ReplyDeleteAlso like 12 versions of The Byrds especially the early versions to the later version with Clarence White.
The Hollies with Graham Nash and without (he wasn't the lead singer right)
The Move pre and post Jeff Lynne.
Freddie and the Dreamers......no Freddie never left.
The Beatles were never the same after Paul died.
ReplyDeleteGreat before and great after, but when Al Anderson bowed out of NRBQ it was just never the same.
ReplyDeleteThe Who and Stones may be the exception for this topic, since most bands that have changes in personnel do not keep playing the back catalog as religiously. It becomes a matter of do you prefer a particular "period", for instance Gabriel Genesis, Phil Collins Genesis or Trio Genesis? Wakeman Yes, Moraz Yes or (shudder) Rabin Yes?
ReplyDeleteIf you want to see a deeply divided fan base, check the comments on youtube to any pre-Brighter than Creation's Dark video by the Drive By Truckers. Flame war galore with a large guerrila insurgence led by Jason Isbell fans and rampant misogyny towards Shonna Tucker.
Probably the smoothest replacement was Fleetwood Mac finding Buckingham Nicks. Buckingham's banjo picking style suited old stuff like "Station Man" and "Oh Well," and his and Nicks' songs seemed like a logical progression from waht Fleetwood Mac did after Jeremy Spencer left. They could have really alienated the few core fans the Mac had remaining, and instead...
Anybody qualified to compare the John Mayall bands with Clapton, Peter Green and Mick Taylor in them? I know there was once a double album comp taken from all three bands, but I never had a copy. My personal favorite is Blues from Laurel Canyon, with playing from both Green and Taylor.
of course, the venerable Allman Brothers Band is the finest example of how a band could lose key members and yet evolve into a strong, if not stronger, ensemble. The band, with its current lineup, was an absolute beast when first assembled ten years ago. It's arguable that many if not most versions of the band (original lineup, the 5-man band, the Warren/Woody era and now) were spectacular.
ReplyDeleteThe next would, of course, be the Grateful Dead but that examining that band is like comparing a baseball team's roster from one year to the next...
Bob Stinson was the Keith Moon of the Replacements.
ReplyDeleteI know lead vocalists are off limits for this but still, how can anyone go pay to see Yes w/o Jon Anderson?
ReplyDeleteI'm with Ken. To me, NRBQ with Al was magical. Without, they are merely really terrific.
ReplyDeleteYes and King Crimson both suffered after Bill Bruford left.
ReplyDeleteAs Lowell George faded, so did Little Feat. I like Frank Zappa's records with the original Mothers (especially Jimmy Carl Black and Roy Estrada) better than what followed.
Never thought about that Buzz, but you are right. Little Feat was Lowell George, since then it's been like Lizzy without Lynott.
DeleteChicago was a completely different animal after the death of Terry Kath
ReplyDeleteObviously, Fleetwood Mac. Moving creative control from Peter Green, to Jeremy Spencer, to Danny Kirwan to Bob Welch, to Lindsey Buckingham ... each sound more different as time went on. Not so much those first few bluesy changes, but from Green to Buckingham, a sea change.
ReplyDeleteRe: Stones. We were debating at work today Ron Wood's decision to join the Stones and his worth after joining. My point being he disappeared into the Stones: are there any songs, riffs or solos that any of us can point at and say, "That's Ron Wood's work." It seems to me like he became invisible ... after being one of the three major forces at work in The Faces ... just listen to the guitar on "That's All You Need" if you need any proof. Then again, after Lane left, the band slowly faded apart, and the writing was on the wall ... so why not join the best rock band on earth? But I can look at Mick Taylor-era Stones and hear his work all over it: Moonlight Mile, Fingerprint File, Can't You Hear Me Knocking, etc. I can't for the life of me name one Stones song that I attribute to Ron Wood making it a classic or identifiable as a track he left his imprint on.
Fun topic. First let me mention it's funny you focus on The Who in the intro to this, b/c I just walked in from seeing The Who here in the ATL. They played Quadrophenia all the way through, plus some encore songs. I thought it was a pretty good show, but the acoustics of the venue hurt the overall experience for me. Most people around were going nuts though (I think 90% of the venue stood up the whole show) so I was in the minority...
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, there are some (to me) disconcerting moments in the current show where they have John Entwistle play a bass solo -- from the grave -- up on screen -- during 5:15. Weird! Later, they do the same sort of thing with Moon.
I get why they do it, of course. But it was a bit unseemly, somehow. I prefer the way McCartney has eulogized George in recent years - by playing "Something" on ukelele. That tribute makes perfect sense to me. But having The Ox play a bass solo in a film clip? And then have everybody cheer like he's there or something? Weird.
I too have been a total Who tear in recent years - yep, playing even the bad bootlegs too. Tonight didn't seem as good as some of the best of the recent years' boots... but it did have lots of Townshend windmills, which is still thrilling in person.
OK, I'll have more to say about the actual topic in a couple of days I am sure...
- A Walk In The Woods
William Repsher-
ReplyDeleteYou are right on the money concerning Ron Wood. His work with Faces is one of the reasons I took up guitar. Now I can't tell him from Mick.
My two cents worth.
ReplyDeleteThe Rolling Stones easily recovered from the loss of Brian Jones. The arrival of Mick Taylor gave them the sound that neither Jones or Keith could give them. With Taylor the Stones went through their Golden Age.
For me, the Stones never recovered from the loss of Bill Wyman. Listening to those early discs, it was Charlie and Bill, the seasoned jazz players who kept the band on course through those beginning years. Bill and his peer, John Entwhistle, would not only lay the foundation for their band's songs, I am always amazed with their incredible fills.
Brian Eno leaving Roxy Music was pretty dramatic. All the albums are brilliant, but if you knew nothing about the band you wouldn't suspect that the same group that did the first Roxy album was also responsible for "Siren" - save for the vocal, perhaps. The Red Hot Chili Peppers one latter album with Dave Navarro replacing John Frusciante was definitely not the same beast.
ReplyDeleteDr Wu
ReplyDeleteGood point about Eno and Roxy.
I'll add that while all the bass players they hired were interchangeable, their drummer, Paul Thompson wasn't. He is one of three drummers credited on "Manifesto" which is the first one I didn't like. All the subsequent albums lacked his snap (or wallop). Only when he returned for the 2001 reunion did they sound like their '70's heyday.
Actually Buzz, Paul Thompson is the only drummer on Manifesto. I think only one bass player too, Gary Tibbs. 2 Keys- Alan Spenner & Paul Carrack. That album has its moments, but I agree. The debut through Siren are fantastic, in part to Thompson creative pounding.
ReplyDeleteI had to get out "Manifesto" to see why I thought there were three drummers credited, and Paul Thompson is indeed the only one listed. I listened to the thing, and while the drum sound is terrible, on most of the tracks it's obviously him. However, "Angel Eyes" and "Dance Away" sound different.
DeleteAccording to wikipedia, Rick Marotta, and Steve Ferrone are additional personnel listed as drummers. Further research has revealed that my copy of the cd contains the "single" versions of those songs, not the originals, and maybe that's what's caused the confusion.
Knew about the single mixes on the CD, always a sore spot. But I didn't know about Marotta and Ferrone. I'm sure it's Paul on the title track. How can you not like that drum sound?
DeleteNot him, the production. I dislike very much Manzanera's guitar sound, too.
DeleteRepsher with yet another great comment.
ReplyDeleteronnie did great work with the faces; the interesting thing is that the faces were not known for sobriety, so it can't be the keith.ronnie party thing is the problem, but it is true, i think, that the two did not do each other any favors. so maybe what this means is that the most irreplacable band member was keith until 1972. the stones were recmarkable with brian; they were remarkable with mick taylor. bill wyman was a great, great bassist. charlie is my faovrite drummer. that jagger guy was a helluva vocalist. but maybe what made the stones the best band in the world for so long was keith, and that when keith, wrung out or drugged out, or both, was not quite keith anymore the stone fell off. they were still quite good---sometimes excellent as the remixed some girls shows---but their heart and glue faltered.
Santana after gregg rolie departed
ReplyDeleteditto Journey.
DeleteGov't Mule after Woody passed on. The band is still good and far more popular but has never been the same. That punch in the gut from Woody's bass was a thing of beauty. The power in power trio.
ReplyDeleteMy theory is that a band's decline starts when they sack the drummer.
ReplyDeleteMoony wise, it was sadly death, but the decline set in.
Except when they are the Beatles. Those Decca demos blow. Goodbye Pete.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking Buffalo Springfield. Neil of copurse came to mind quickly, but Stills followed very fast. Then I got to thinking. Considering Neil's & Stephen's on again off again relationship, perhaps Richie Furay is the real irreplaceable member. Bruce and Dewey are gone and ONLY with Richie (whose maintained his Springfield repertoire along with his Poco and solo works, largely Christian in nature) do Stills & Young become The Buffalo Springfield. His songs (and his versions of the Young & Stills tunes) provided the COUNTRY in the Country Rock Springfield tinge. I have a Live 2009 Concert that is magnificent of The Richie Furay Band. The two live Buffalo Springfield reunion shows are sweet and ragged and it's all Richie's glue, quite like David Crosby in the Byrds & CSN. It's his rhythm guitar that gives the bounce to the harmonic bed Young & Stills jumped on left and right. I would rave on and on about Poco's First, Pickin' Up The Pieces and how it made me misty eyed the first listen, especially when I saw the Publishing credits for Springalo Tunes. Pickin' stands with Guilded Palace of Sin, Music From Big Pink, Sweetheart of the Rodeo as lifelong influences on my musical tastes and performing song choices.
ReplyDeletePaul Hester of Crowded House. The band plays on, but without the manic humor he injected into their shows, and without his excellent musicianship.
ReplyDelete