It's that time of year again, when the great debates on the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame begin. These debates aren't always about who should or should not be inducted. Sometimes the talk is just plain trash. Not everyone, including some musicians, cares about this building or what it represents.
For our purposes here, I'd like to focus on this year's nominees.
Here they are:
Of the 15 nominees, who does not belong?
The three that jump out at me on first glance would be Heart, N.W.A., and Paul Butterfield Blues Band.
I've loved Heart since day one. The great powerhouse that is Ann Wilson remains one of the best voices in rock and roll. But there needs to be something more than just the novelty of being a successful band fronted by sisters. Early records sounded like Led Zeppelin and the later, more successful records were badly produced, rock-radio schlock. Since then, not much. They haven't really had a hit in 22 years.
While I hope Public Enemy gets in on their first try, I just don't see N.W.A. as a worthy addition. I won't take away the fact that they pioneered gangsta rap, but there needs to be a bit more substance and not just controversy. Public Enemy has depth. N.W.A.? Well, I'm not feeling it. 3 officially released records is just not enough.
I'll admit I've never been a fan of the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, and that has a lot to do with my skepticism regarding their nomination. And again, just not enough music there. Are two "classic" records enough?
Of the remaining dozen, I'm only really on the fence about The Marvelettes. Great music, as always, from Motown, but unlike The Temps or the Four Tops, or The Supremes, or Marvin, The Marvelettes lack the star power, and quite frankly the amount of hits.
Who am I most happy about?
The Meters and Deep Purple, the latter getting a push over on Burning Wood.
Thoughts?
Discussion?
At this point, really, I have no problem with anybody getting on the ballot (though Wenner continually leaving out KISS is still a sore spot...)
ReplyDeleteI would (like you) have a problem if NWA got in before Public Enemy, though.
And, there will likely always be one Motown band inducted every year (or close to it) until they *all* are in there, so I won't be surprised when the Marvelettes get in.
My only *real* complaint (beside another snub of KISS) is that The Runaways should have gotten on the ballot before Joan Jett got on as a solo artist.
I see your point about all of your choices. I still don't get why Yes is not nominated. Clearly groundbreaking. More influential than many nominated, and excellent musicianship. Is prog rock a dirty word?
ReplyDeleteMy initial impression was to be charitable and say "If one of them deserves it I guess they all do." Then I read further and thought, "Of those nominees, whose records have I bought?" That would be Kraftwerk, The Meters, Donna Summer, Chic, Public Enemy, and Randy Newman. Donna Summer is no longer in my collection, but I remember a couple terrific tracks on "Bad Girls", which I bought in reaction to rednecks burning "disco" albums in Cleveland.
ReplyDeletePaul Butterfield is my anti-nominee, because there is hardly anything I like less than a "white boy blues shuffle".
Well, the debate, as in the past, is the term Rock and Roll. The nominees grow thinner every year, making a wider sweep of the rim close to the bottom, falsely considering everyone now. Just how long can it go on until they nominate Pat Boone.
ReplyDeleteAnyway. Albert King, blues, no. Chic and Donna Summer disco, no. Kraftwerk, German techno music, no. The Marvelettes, Sal is right, not enough music to represent. I don't even know who the hell N.W.A is. Paul Butterfield, blues again, no. Public Enemy, rap, ecchh, no. Randy Newman?? Puhleeze. Rush, although a very talented band, not a fit, songs are convoluted and too long.
That leaves the duly nominated. Deep Purple, Heart, Joan Jett, The Meters and Procol Harum.
Those are my picks. Poor KISS doesn't get a fair shake yet again. But according to them, they don't give a shit.
We've been deep in this discussion regarding what is and isn't rock re: appropriateness for the HOF and I continue to favor a broader, inclusive approach for blues and even rap artists. Public Enemy yes, N.W.A. no but with eventual consideration of Dr Dre.
ReplyDeleteI would like to strongly argue for The Paul Butterfield Blues Band. Their impact on the assimilation of black/Chicago blues into American rock was huge; even if their own recorded output was thin, they were the ones who gave legitimacy to the old blues artists that inspired many American bands (the British rock scene was way ahead on this, admittedly). PBBB were the first integrated band of any substance, and PB was the first white harmonica player. He and Mike Bloomfield played with and roadied for Muddy Waters, Wolf, etc as teenagers and their work with Dylan at Newport is legendary. I personally think their first record and East-West are classics. Of course, being on the University of Chicago faculty, I have a soft spot for our former students (Paul Butterfield and Elvin Bishop)...
My votes were for PBBB, Albert King, Deep Purple, The Meters, and Public Enemy.
Rush and Kiss belong in the Hall. From an influential standpoint, it's overdue.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I don't see Heart going in. Nancy Wilson belongs as an individual, as she influenced lots of "girls" to play the guitar. That said, Joan Jett does not belong, neither does Procol Harum, and Randy Newman never rocked (or rolled, for that matter).
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame...hmm let's see who isn't Rock and Roll by definition: Chic, Donna Summer, Public Enemy, Kraftwerk, NWA and Randy Newman. They shouldn't even be considered. They've brought nothing to the table. The rest of the artists I'm good with. Deep Purple? Long overdue. Congratulations boys...at last.
ReplyDeleteI have complete respect for FD's position. It is not unreasonable to assert that the R&R Hall of Fame should honor rock and roll artists. But the train has long left the station here. We had this argument last year when Laura Nyro (rightfully, IMO) was inducted. Sam Cooke SHOULD be in the HOF. Johnny Cash SHOULD be in the HOF.
ReplyDeleteSo given that my position is that the R&RHOF should honor any style of pop music, I'd say the Marvelettes would be my number one choice here, since I think they are the best girl group in the history of Motown (if anyone has any doubts, check out http://www.amazon.com/Deliver-Singles-1961-1971-Marvelettes/dp/B000001AK0/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1349710497&sr=1-6&keywords=marvelettes). They had two superb lead singers in Gladys Horton and Wanda Young, which gave them tremendous versatility. "Please Mr. Postman" was Motown's first Billboard #1 hit. They scored 15 Top 20 R&B hits, if only four Top 20s on the pop charts.
I don't have a strong #2 pick, but would probably pick Donna Summer, who doesn't have the depth of catalog of the Marvelettes, was a cultural icon in a way they never were.
Wait a sec FD, The Meters don't play Rock N Roll by you definition, and if there were record stores, Kraftwerk would certainly be found in that section.
ReplyDeleteI wiki'd The Paul Butterfield Blues Band because I know next to nothing about them, and found they were hardly a band. The closest thing to an original lineup didn't make it to a third album or have any hits, and while Mr. Butterfield probably qualifies for the harmonica hall of fame he's an iffy inclusion here.
I can't exclude the Blues as they were the bedrock of the form, but then again I have a rockin' Mississippi Fred McDowell album which he starts off by saying "I don't play no Rock Roll, just the natural blues".
I vote for the big tent, so even though I loathe Kiss with a capital "L", they definitely belong.
Hey bbj, just saying that The Meters make a closer, better musical fit than the others, and I like them a lot. Plus you have to have five winners, right?
DeleteI got a little off point. My non-belongers from the list are:
ReplyDeletePaul Butterfield, Donna Summer, Randy Newman, Chic, NWA, Heart, and I want to say Procol Harum, because "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" is not enough to make it, and the only other song I know is "Conquistador", which was performed with The Edmonton Symphony Orchestra, which is inherently not Rock N Roll. But I don't know their music, or have ever met anyone who admitted to being a fan.
Hello Buzz,
ReplyDeleteMy name is Sal and I am a huge fan of Procol Harum. They are much more than "Whiter Shade Of Pale." First three LPs are stellar. Next three are better than good. Check out "Grand Hotel" if you wanna steer clear of the obivous.
Sal, I knew there was a reason I love you. Procol was the soundtrack to my high school years. Whiter Shade is the least of what they should be remembered for. Shine On Brightly and Salty Dog are still two of my top albums of all time. I never saw them live until later in their career, but did see a lineup with Matthew Fisher (pre-lawsuit) at the Bottom Line.
ReplyDeleteI just gotta jump in here, the first five procol albums through broken barricades are all classics. BJ Wilson probably the most under appreciated drummer in rock. And the records after barricades weren't chopped liver. Re: grand hotel. They're still making good records.
DeleteIt's only Monday, but let me do a bit of moderating here.
ReplyDeleteFocusing on the name "R&R HOF" seems unnecessary. What is rock and roll exactly? If the HOF was limited to only barebones R&R, guitars, bass, drums, fast songs, Chuck Berry riffs, the museum would be the size of an outhouse.
Now it's true, it'll be a cold day in Tucson when we see The Meters in the Country Music Hall Of Fame, or The Beastie Boys, or The Who. But I'm happier with Johnny Cash in and not out of the Rock Hall. And really it makes sense...to me. As most of the genres that have been inducted. It's all connected.
Same with Randy Newman. Does he rock? Define "rock." "Rednecks" fucking rocks, by my definition. So does Public Enemy's "It Takes A Nation Of Millions." Think of how many covered Randy. Do we want Dusty Springfield out of the hall? Or Harry Nilsson? Or The Animals? Rick Nelson?
What could we call this building that would allow all these fantastic artists who have influenced so many, including each other, to get in based on their merits?
If you don't like rap, fine, don't like rap. Doesn't make The Beastie Boys any less influential on countless others that followed. And we can say that about so many, including Joan Jett, and maybe even Heart, though I still don't think Heart has done enough.
Anyway...I'm guessing I've made my point.
Carry on, good people. It's only Monday.
Okay, so maybe Randy does rock. Then again, I'm also the guy who doesn't "get" Patti Smith.
ReplyDeleteProcol Harum was a wonderful band, and Gary Brooker has an amazing voice. I still get chills from Conquistador and tears well in my eyes whenever I hear Salty Dog. That said, the Hall has a lot of debts to pay before they get in. Namely, Nicky Hopkins.
I don't "get" Patti Smith either.
ReplyDeletePretty much all them Sun Records guys, which includes Johnny Cash, belong in there.
Here's Johnny's version of "Rusty Cage"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtbuUlSGXzc
Tell me that isn't Rock N Roll.
Sadly, none of these bands mean much to me personally. For historical reasons, if I had to vote, I'd probably tab the Meters, Donna Summer, and Public Enemy. The rest, to my ears, is second rate. But per posts above, and today's Burning Wood, I'll give the Marvelettes, Procul Harum, and Deep Purple more listens.
ReplyDeleteFunny, I'd consider Randy Newman for the songwriters' Hall of Fame but probably not the R&R. Maybe it's because I love his Pixar songs.
Bruce H.
as i mentioned to u,hof is gonna self destruct due simply to lack of bands/groups/artists, et al..
ReplyDeletereplacements, anybody?
i see horace clark/mookie wilson(fyi: original name of pearl jam?)/ willie montanez/ craig swan...howie spira
What are we doing here? We're curating the past.
ReplyDeleteRock 'n' Roll, like Sha Na Na, is not here to stay. It's dead already. The decline really started with the end of vinyl records, the exorbitant price of cd's, and the burning out and dying off of the originators.
Those first Rock 'n' Rollers, starting with Elvis, then the Beatles and their peers, didn't listen to Rock 'n' Roll growing up. They listened to Blues and other music. Subsequent generations listened to Rock 'n' Roll, trying to capture the magic, and were sometimes successful, but as each generation gets further from the original sources, the music gets less rich. The best Rock drummers started out trying to play Jazz. The most recent "big" band, Radiohead, whose "The Bends" is a pretty good Rock 'n' Roll album, have chosen to reject the past. There is no country, blues, or tin pan alley lurking in their music. Youngsters imitating them might know the Beatles, but don't know Little Richard, Jerry Lee, or Elvis, or care. Punk is their starting point, which is more about attitude than music. Today, The Sex Pistols sound like classic rock, because even though they set out to destroy it, they were of it.
The "Next Big Thing", in case you haven't heard, is dj based Electronic Dance Music. Hopefully the "thing" after that will be more interesting.
Unless it becomes a bigger tent, The Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame will end up being just a museum, and once the boomers are gone, they'll sell off the collection and close the doors. Sorry, it's a gloomy October day.
Well said. A spot on observation.
DeleteGood one BBJ! Nice points. By the way, I think the Next Big Thing will be guys dressed like cavemen banging on big rocks. Just just watch for it. Thank me later for the heads-up.
Delete- A walk in the woods
Randy Newman never rocked?
ReplyDeleteNot only does "I'm Dead (But I Don't Know It)" rock like a MoFo, it's the perfect description of most HoF inductees:
I have nothing left to say
But I'm gonna say it anyway
Thirty years upon a stage
And I hear the people say
Why won't he go away?
.......
When will I end this bitter game?
When will I end this cruel charade?
Everything I write all sounds the same
Each record that I'm making
Is like a record that I've made
Just not as good
I'm dead, but I don't know it.
Beyond that...if the Red Hot Chili Peppers were a joke, Joan Jett and the Blackhearts are the punchline. Talk about Bullshit Mountain. "You don't lose when you lose fake friends." Thanks Joan, that's some deep shit, emphasis on shit.
Blue Oyster Cult. Grand Funk. Todd Rundgren.
Until then, it will continue to be "The Fake on the Lake."
Yeah that Joan Jett never did anything worthwhile and hey while we're at it how about, "she loves you yeah yeah yeah," more like yech! Oh and , "you ain't nothin but a hound dog," Pure dreck right. I think The Beatles and Elvis should be kicked out because of the lyrics in those two songs.
DeleteI would disagree that she never did anything worthwhile, the Runaways I would agree should get a nod, but that song was a piece of crap the neither the Beatles nor Elvis would have touched with a toilet plunger.
DeleteTrue enough but one crappy song out of a portfolio of classics shouldn't deny Joan her rightfully earned place in the H of F. All of the artists in their sadly own a clunker or two.
DeleteKraftwerk. Ha ha ha. I always enjoyed them, but RRHOF? I dunno. They made an interesting record because there was nothing like it. Did it influence? Can't really say.
ReplyDeleteI don't really follow the inductee nominations - I only notice when someone like Sal points it out to me.
I don't know when I fell in love with Joan Jett. I think it was when I found out she liked baseball and was an Orioles fan. Sure, if you're looking for in depth navel staring lyrics, Joan's never gonna be there. I have listened to her for over thirty years now and she has never failed to deliver big drums, big guitars with just a touch of living on the wild side.
ReplyDeleteBruce gave her a song for her movie debut, essentially playing an image of herself. She ripped with the Foo Fighters on Letterman and has never let her mission to let us worship at the altar of rock and roll alter. Her musician peers have never lost their respect for her and she has never been linked to some embarrassing public scandal. She has played rock and roll as hard as any man and harder than any other woman rocker. A founding member of the Runaways, Joan is still front and center of any band she forms. Diminutive yet powerful; androgynous yet sexy, I for one feel that Joan Jett belongs in the Hall for longevity, dedication and, without a doubt, as she says in "Up Your Alley," she CAN back it up.
I guess it's a sign that I rarely pay attention to the HoF - I was surprised Albert King wasn't already in - so I don't have any axes to grind about who has been left out. I have fond memories of freeform radio when a teenaged me had trouble keeping all of the Kings straight. All I knew for sure was that Cream did Born Under a Bad Sign and that was enough for me to love Albert. The Stevie Ray Vaughn/Albert King live album was a great postscript.
ReplyDeleteAs for Paul Butterfield, the nomination seems weak if it's because they were first in anything. Could just as easily pick the Electric Flag, Canned Heat, Mother Earth, the Blues Project...
Most of the other selections seem to be attempts at covering all of the genres, which is admirable but not really necessary. Procol Harum satisfies me nostalgically - they were big in our house growing up (one of my sisters is a completist on them) and I still play "In Held Twas in I" and a lot of selections from the Home album frequently. A HoF performance by Public Enemy would be something to look forward to.
To back up Anonymous, TPBBB was the first American white boys to show that they could, indeed, play the Blues. Until them it was thought that only those English guys could.
ReplyDeleteEngland had "Clapton is God" while here in the States it was the "The Three B's of Blues - Butterfield, Bloomfield and Bishop."
I don't have much to add to this type of discussion, because I think less about "what is good music" than I do about "what music do I like." Although I'm a manic mix-tape maker - which is a form of curation, to paraphrase BBJ above - but the driver for me is what I like, not what's cool or good.
ReplyDeleteAnd so, sure, I'd put freakin' "Dog And Butterfly" by Heart on a mix tape, followed by "Last Night I Had The Strangest Dream" by Randy Newman, followed by "Handclapping Song" by the Meters.
But I have no opinion about whether any of those guys should be in the rock & roll hall of fame or not. It doesn't intersect with my life much.
- A walk in the woods
i think that bbj's comment above has a lot of substance to it---wither rock and roll? kind of seems that way. it's hard to see any coherent HOF in the distant future, the tent may have to get too big, but we are with the 2013 HOF class and thus still working on the merits of the 60s through 80s and so i think the idea of rock and what forms it might take is still a (mostly retrospectively) viable one.
ReplyDeletethat said, in this class one stands above: Public Enemy. they should be racking up a babe ruth/hank aaron/tom seaver kind of percentage of the vote. if rock and roll is, broadly defined, the music of the underdog and the underclass; if rock and roll challenges power; if rock and roll draws on blues and other african-american idioms, then public enemy was one of the last great rock n'roll bands, as well as one of the first great rap bands. unbelievably smart, and, in the sort of sometimes overconfident way of great rockers. the beatles were bigger than jesus and elvis was a straight out racist. absurd statements, but the kind you expect from a young rocker in his prime. funny, both chuck's coruscating excoriations and flav's slapstick (damn it sucks to see flav being a fool in "real" life on t.v. and the sound---wow. terminator x was making a joyful, dissonant noise back there, bringing sounds rarely heard before in popular (relatively) music and rarely heard since. PE is hand's down the best of this class.
albert king, cause how can albert king not already be there. not a giant, but a great.
the meters, cause come on george porter jr alone, is enough and the rest of them are nearly that good. after earl king, my absolute n.o favorites.
randy newman, cause this is a big tent at the HOF, and he's a great songwriter, almost as great as he thinks he is and that is saying something. he has decades of great work.
rush. i hate rush. well, i hate geddy lee's voice. but the music is very fine, they have hung in there for years and made many fine albums and been loved and emulated. they belong.
not kiss. sorry. i thought they were a carnival act in my teens and the only thing that has changed is that i find their songs even thinner today. yes, rock n' roll all night is catchy as hell. but daryl strawberry had a much better career than they did and no one thinks he belongs in a hall of fame.
@Big Bad Wolf
ReplyDeleteNicely done, re: Public Enemy. Couldn't agree more.
As for Kiss...there are a lot of great rock and roll moments on their first 6, "classic" records. Yes, the music is "thin," but that's okay. There are enough hooks and big time choruses to be had across those records.
My issue is what came after. They became a joke. It is widely known that they weren't even playing on their own records and many of the songs were ghostwritten. If the band ceased to exist after 1980, there may be a strong argument for their inclusion. They have many famous fans, from rockers to powerpoppers who cite them as an influence. But in the last 30 years Kiss has been a product, not a band.
I would argue that Kiss was always a product, but now an especially crappy one.
ReplyDeleteOf the finalists on this list, I'd omit PBBB (though Mike Bloomfield would be OK to induct in the "Sidemen" category)and maybe The Marvelettes. N.W.A. is the Buffalo Springfield of rap in terms of post-breakup solo success, I suppose, but Public Enemy deserves induction first based upon higher quality material. I'm pleased to see Deep Purple, Rush, and Heart on the ballot--I believe all three are deserving of induction (I'm a huge Rush fan). The Hall has teased disco with the same two finalists (Chic and Summer) for years, but no inductions. I'm OK with both getting in, but then shutting the door on the genre. I'd love for Randy Newman to get in, and his case is bolstered by the previous inductions of Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, and Laura Nyro, all of whom I like, but not as much as Randy. All the others seem worthy in their own ways.
ReplyDeleteI'm still puzzled by the omission of The Clovers. They don't appear to be controversial or have a group of vocal detractors in the way that, say, Rush, Kiss, or The Moody Blues, do. It seems to be more a case of oversight by the Hall.
Shit THREE??...I can give you EIGHT right off the bat...but I won't name 'em 'cos I'm sure Sal knows exactly which ones I'd pick.....a sick joke this "Hall of Fame" is.....
ReplyDeleteFirst things first, it's called the ROCK AND ROLL Hall of Fame, not the rap hall of fame. I can't understand why they inducted a rap musician named Grandmaster Flash into it. He's not rock, he's rap. They really need to keep it rock and roll, no matter if it's hard rock, soft rock, folk rock, prog. rock, any kind of rock and that's it!!! Anyone who made a musical history changing contribution, but not rap!!!
ReplyDelete